Intense fighting between rebels and Congolese army sparks fear of regional war

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• John Yang:

  This past week, the World Health Organization warned that violent conflict in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo is making the humanitarian crisis there even worse, Fighting has intensified as armed rebels close in Goma, the provincial capital of one of the DRC's most mineral rich regions, hospitals are overwhelmed with casualties and hundreds of 1000s of displaced civilians are crowding camps.

• Lummoo Msabia Furaha (through translator):

  I fled the attacks from Sake while bombs and gunshots were resounding with my six children. Since we arrived here, we haven't received any assistance and we're hungry and do not know what to do.

• John Yang:

  Now there are fears of a wider regional conflict. Jason Stearns is founder of the Congo Research Group at NYU Center for International Cooperation, and an assistant professor of international studies at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver.

  Jason, who are these rebels? What are their goals are what are their aims? And why are they making this push on Goma now.

  Jason Stearns, Center for International Cooperation: So the M23 is one of 100 different armed groups in the eastern DRC. Although probably the most notorious, and most important one. They're responsible for around 1.8 million displaced people out of the 7 million total displaced people.

  There's been various rounds of rebel groups, backed by the Rwandan government's often drawn from one ethnic community in the eastern DRC that have been launching attacks on the Congolese government going back to 1996. So they have a very long heritage.

  But this particular round of escalation started in 2021. And the real reason it started was geopolitical conflict between the Rwandan governments and other governments in the region, and particularly the Ugandan government. But that played out as so often happens on Congolese soil.

  And so it's really difficult actually to talk about the M23 Rebellion without talking about the Rwandan government itself, like other governments in the region, they're trying to protect get a foothold in the eastern DRC protect their interests that include both security interests, but also, economic interests in this very mineral rich area of the continent.

• John Yang:

  Are there American interests at stake here?

• Jason Stearns:

  The United States has become increasingly involved in the Congo due to the transition towards green energies. The Congo produces around 70 percent of cobalt in the world and that you need that electric car batteries. It's the largest producer of copper in all of Africa. That's pretty much any piece of electronics that you have. And it's also a very large producer of a variety of other minerals, tungsten, tin and gold in particular.

  But I think it's also important to highlight that the U.S. has an interest here also, just because foreigners have always been part of the creation of Congo's troubles. It may be difficult for listeners to find Congo on the map. But any Congolese has a feeling that they are the victims of international interference and they have reason to do so I think in particular because, you know, the Congo's history has been embroiled in international intrigue since its founding in 1885.

• John Yang:

  You mentioned the role of Rwanda and Uganda, what could be the spark that could expand this into a regional conflict? And what would be their concerns about a regional conflict?

• Jason Stearns:

  Well, that's a very good question, because increasingly, it is a regional conflict, you know, have peacekeeping troops are actually intervention troops from South Africa from Tanzania and Malawi, fighting pretty much against the Rwandan troops in the eastern Congo, you have Burundians that country just to the south of Rwanda, fighting against probably Rwandan troops in the eastern Congo.

  And so even though nobody is talking in terms of a regional war, none of these countries is really accusing or saying that they're killing each other in the eastern DRC. That is pretty much what is started happening. So I think the risks are very, very much there if diplomacy and cooler minds don't prevail.

• John Yang:

  Is the Congolese military up for this challenge? Are they well equipped and well trained enough to fight against these rebels and also who are backed by other governments?

• Jason Stearns:

  In the Congo was deployed as a much larger military budget than ever before, they spent about a billion dollars upwards a year on defense. Now they've hired a variety of private security contractors, especially from Eastern Europe to help them both train troops and fight on the front lines.

  And so the Congolese government has tried to throw the kitchen sink at this problem. I think, unfortunately, they have not fared very well on the battlefield. They've been plagued by corruption by confused chains of command. And I mentioned before, there's about 100 Different armed groups in the eastern DRC.

  Well, the one common denominator of all those armed groups as the Congolese state, the Congolese state is either too weak or very often actually in complicity with those armed groups selling them weapons through corrupt networks.

  And so it's difficult really to imagine a long standing solution to this problem without a reform of the Congolese army and really a reform of the Congolese state that almost has a vested interest in continuing the conflict given the corruption involved in the military.

• John Yang:

  You mentioned peacekeepers from other African countries. The U.N. pulled out its peacekeepers starting at the beginning of the month. Why are they leaving?

• Jason Stearns:

  Well, the U.N. is in a phased withdrawal. They're on their way out. The Congolese government has asked them to leave. I think there's a widespread perception not just by the Congolese government, but by the Congolese people that the U.N. has this vast budget. It's over a billion dollars a year. It's larger than the Congolese government's health or education budget.

  And yet, they've been there for 25 years now. And they've not been able to bring an end to the conflict. And so there's a lot of resentment of seeing U.N. officials getting big salaries, driving around in air conditioned cars, and not being able to finish off this this conflict.

  Now in their place to a certain extent the Congolese government is invited in these other countries to help them fight against these various insurgencies. But that so far has not yet been very effective.

• John Yang:

  Jason Stearns of the Congo Research Group at NYU. Thank you very much.

• Jason Stearns:

  Thank you.